Episode 24 - Éloïse Neff: All Terrain GIS

What if the best map isn't a map at all—but the system that makes mapping effortless?

Eloise Neff spent seven years at Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) building geographic information systems from the ground up. But when asked for her dream map, she has a surprising answer: she doesn't have one. Instead, she wants something better.

A dream information system.

In this episode, Eloise—an engineer turned GIS manager—explains why the "...information system" part of GIS is too often forgotten. She argues that most analysts spend more time fighting their software than solving problems. Her vision? A flexible, sustainable, secure system that matches your actual needs (not your vendor's sales pitch). She walks us through the delicate balance between flexibility and sustainability, the critical role of ETLs, and why data protection in humanitarian contexts can be a matter of life and death.

She also shares hard-won wisdom on navigating the headquarters vs. field divide, why GIS professionals are uniquely positioned to bridge both worlds, and the single most important skill that has nothing to do with technology: truly listening.

"An information system is not a magic wand. The tool is one thing. The knowledge of the people is everything."

• Why GIS is first an information system, second a mapping tool
• The Ferrari vs. 4x4 philosophy of system design
• Flexibility vs. sustainability: the eternal trade-off
• ETLs explained (extract, transform, load)
• Data as a weapon: information security in humanitarian contexts
• Headquarters vs. field—and why GIS sits perfectly in between
• The lost art of listening to users

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello and welcome to 15 Minute Maps, where I ask my guests to let their minds roam free and come up with a new idea for their dream map. The first known maps of the world were created thousands of years ago, just a flat discs surrounded by water. And today we are mapping the furthest reaches of the known universe. In between lie a myriad of mapping possibilities. What if we could do away with resource limitations? Think beyond the conventions of time, space, and political boundaries. What kind of new maps could we dream up? My guest today is Eloise Neff, a seven-year veteran of Médecin sans frontières, working at the conjunction of IT, GIS, and project management. With such a wealth of technical experience, I'm looking forward to hear what her dream map might look like. Eloise, thank you so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Thank you, Ugo, for the warm welcome and the invitation.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

You are a self-described engineer and you transitioned slowly throughout your career into the world of GIS, although you did have some training in that in the beginning. What have you brought through from your education or your technical experience or even just knowledge of engineering into the realm of humanitarian GIS?

SPEAKER_01 1:09

You see, so I am an engineer first with a lot of theory and mathematics, physics, so that's great. But at some point you say, hmm, how can you put that into actual something and into actually um solving problems? And this is where I discovered uh GIS and geomatics, so in my engineering school, and then slowly by slowly being a consultant in IT, so uh mostly in uh the health domain or the social domain, I had this amazing opportunity to join uh MSF. So I would say it was uh uh uh um a good conjunction for me at some point to join MSF. So I was lucky and I'm really happy to have been part of the this great journey uh at MSF, leading the building of uh this new geographic information system. So to answer your question, a bit of luck and a lot of uh will to want to help people and solve problems.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Do you think your IT background or your knowledge of just information systems has maybe made that transition easier?

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Uh yes and no. Yes, because uh the engineer uh engineer mindset uh as well as the IT mindset helps understanding the problem and uh bring a solution. But on the other hand, when you're an engineer, you like some of the I would say the personal thing, the uh uh people thing, the the the the the the aspect that uh uh makes you uh a good talker to people, a good listener as well. And this is what I learned, I learned afterwards. So, yes, I know you have to make the best of the situation every time.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Yeah, I so I I do fully comprehend what you mean. It's it's all very well, you know, knowing how to write Python or SQL or having all of the technical knowledge, but sometimes when it comes to humanitarian GIS, it can be you know really dealing with human situations, especially uh during crises. So I can fully sympathize with how you feel. Now, Eloise, if you're ready, I will count you in and the floor will be yours to describe us your perfect map. In three, two, one, over to you.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

So, as I said, uh I'm really an IT on the IT side of things. So when you told me preparing that this podcast, what is your dream map? I don't have a dream map. But I think the if I would if I were to choose a dream map, it would be the one that you don't struggle to create. The one that you don't don't have to fight with uh your software uh to create. So I would more dream of uh an ideal information system, of course, a geographic information system. So the one system that is designed to uh take the best of your data, uh various multiple data, uh, and uh with the appropriate tool help you uh turn them into uh to the next level. So to really information uh that help you make uh informed decisions. So when we talk about GIS, we often forget the information system part of it. So GIS is related to maps, etc. But if we take really the first meaning, it's really information system. And so for me, a dream information system makes you create dream maps. So that's my point for today. Uh really IT hat, but I also have the uh geomatics hat. And I think this is the combination of these two visions that helps build uh something useful for the geospecial analysts, in fact. Um because for me, an information system in general and the dream information system uh is the one that will answer your needs. I mean, you don't need a Ferrari when uh you will drive on a bumpy, muddy road. And this is exactly the same for an information system. So something that matches your needs depending on your organization, depending with whom you work, etc. etc. It needs also to be quite simple, flexible, and also sustainable. Again, the metaphor of the car. If you have like a car that you need to go to the um to refuel like every two minutes, it's not sustainable. You won't use it for long. That's the same for the information system. How do you make kids sustainable? And also one more thing that I would like to have in my dream information system is all about information security and data protection. Because, especially in uh humanitarian context, but in a lot of contexts, the protection of this sensitive information is really important, it's paramount. Because in some contexts, uh this data, this information that you manipulate uh can be some type of a weapon uh in bad hands. So, in my dream information system, this is a really important thing that uh I would I would like to have it in. Um we talk about information system, but it's not only tech, it's also processes and people. And a lot, a lot, a lot of time, these are forgotten. Because for me, uh the information system really is a place where people exchange knowledge and know-how, and this is really important, especially in GIS, especially in the geomatics community, which is quite small, in fact, because you always see always see the same people, you get to know each other, etc. So you need to share information, you need to share all of that. This has been a hard task, I would say, in uh in my experiences to try to build put the first bricks of this uh dream information system. But uh I hope I've I've done my best so far and I will continue to do so.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Yeah, that's interesting. So I'd like to first off ask a question. So you mentioned the car metaphor. If you're gonna be driving on bumpy roads and muddy roads, you don't want a Ferrari, you want uh an all-terrain vehicle. Now, you're you're using that in the sense of creating a map or creating a system, but sometimes the difficulty arises more when you have the data, but it's not usable. How would you see this kind of system dealing with bumpy and muddy data as opposed to a bumpy and muddy process?

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Uh that's a good question. So always about data, of course. Yeah. So talking about data always, that's the key point. I would say the information system is reliable when it is flexible enough to accept the different kinds of data that uh that are available at the moment. And also have within your information system using uh using the information system, people that are smart and know the data to make them fit in the information system. The tool is one thing, the knowledge of the people is really the important thing thing here. So an information system is not a magic wand. Um you always need to catch up with the latest technology to make sure, okay, this is the latest kind of data, let's say uh new uh type of data. You need to be able to have that incorporated in your in your information system, but also also you need a space, a sandbox for your geospatial analysis to be able to test that. And this is the most uh complex thing that I found as an IT manager, but also a geomatician, is this balance between flexibility and sustainability. Because if you go much too you towards too much flexibility, then uh it's become it becomes really complex for everyone to share the information. If it's too sustainable, too rigid, then there is no innovation and you cannot integrate this new kind of data. So I don't have do not have a magic answer uh generally. It's um it's really having some a good ETL uh in your information system and a very good, very good um data manager.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Well, look, it you don't necessarily need a magic answer because this this thing doesn't exist yet. So you know we're going through it now. Uh just for those who don't know, could you just uh what does an ETL mean?

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Oh sure. Uh sorry for the IT language. So it's uh it it is kind of a magic one. It's an extract transform load tool that allows you to manipulate your data in various ways. So for instance, transforming from a C uh shapefile to uh a service and so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Lovely. Now you mentioned that uh within this whole system you obviously need people who are smart, people who understand the whole process, who understand what this well, not to say that it's a black box, but that that understand how the whole process works. How important are those people in this process? How important are the people that design it and who are then going to be using it throughout its lifetime?

SPEAKER_01 11:16

That's I think really a key question at this period of the time where AI is growing and growing because the black box becomes bigger and bigger. But there are still people who kind of know it. So, from my experience and what I've seen of information system, the people are always the key because they know how to solve the problem. They will figure out something new to solve the issue, or they will figure out something new to create a new tool, etc. So relying on smart people or people that are involved in what they are doing. This is what I mean by smart, not necessarily the most intelligent people, but people uh who want really to make a difference. Uh, for me, they are the they are the key because it is for uh generally in this situation where you face a complex problem, when those people thrive and uh propose new things. I mean, it's really when you are in uh in front of a um a big problem like server downs. This has happened to me several times. You need to you need to have the sparkle. You need the people around the table, knowing the system, knowing their job, having their experience, share the experience and build the solution. And this is what I really, really like in my job as IT manager. It's not the technical stuff, it's how people make the best use of their knowledge, of the tools, of their uh the uh the IT they have to build something new, to solve the problem.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Now, seven years with the with MSF, you've worked obviously for a long time in the humanitarian context. An issue which often comes up is the headquarters versus field divide. Have you come across these kinds of issues in your in your work? And I'd be interested to know whether you've come across similar issues in previous places that you've worked, because you also worked for the National Train Service in in France. I'd like to see if there are any parallels between you know Médecins sans frontières and maybe a more civil engineering uh project. And where would this tool that you're thinking of help in those contexts?

SPEAKER_01 13:34

In big organizations, uh, there are, I think, really often different points of views, like people having the hands-on, operational, like in MSF, and people with the strategy, but I will put brackets uh uh around the word strategy. Uh because uh it's two kind of uh it's two different jobs, and we need the two of them. And it's true uh in the humanitarian world that I've seen at MSF, there are two visions of what MSF should do. And the two visions must be there. The two visions are needed, they need each other, they need to balance uh them uh to continue evolving, to answer the needs, to be there for um the people MSF supports, for instance. And I think it's also true in other big organizations. Let me take the example was uh uh where I was uh working for the Canton de Vaux, I was managing an application that was uh calculating the subsidies uh for people in Canton de Vaux. And the users of the uh these applications were people working for Canton de Vaux for the state of Vaux, and uh meeting on everyday basis the actual people, the actual citizens who need these subsidies. And these people had a very different view of the information system than the IT people in the IT department, and that's normal because you have the hands-on person and the strategy person, uh and the the hands-on people and the strategy people on the that are both doing their work. So, yes, maybe it's bigger in humanitarian world, these two aspects of headquarters versus operation, but I think in all big organizations you can see something similar where you have the users, the people hands-on, and you have the people thinking in background about the strategy, etc. etc. And the one will not exist without the other. What is really hard is to navigate and discuss with these two uh group of uh group of people. Um so in my experience at MSF, the most difficult thing was uh to be kind of in the middle, in between these two groups, because I was not uh operation enough to be, I would say, trusted at the first uh sight by the operations, and I was not uh uh headquartered enough because you know GIS, you are close to the field. So the GIS in MSF was, to my opinion, really in between those two uh those two words. So sometimes it's difficult, but it's also an advantage because at some point these two groups of people listen also to you, so you can have an influence and make sure that the hands-on hands-on people have the good tools, the good GIS tools, and the strategy people think to integrate the GIS in their global strategy. So as a GIS person, and I think most of the geomaticians and geospecial analysts found themselves at the sometime at this position, in between two words. So I would say for me and maybe for a lot of GIS specialists, uh, sometimes it's a strength not to be put in a box between headquarters or operation field.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Look, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you this because you do have this incredible project management experience. People talk about upwards management, you know, if you have a manager that's above you that's difficult, uh how do you how do you deal with that and how do you negotiate those situations? Well, this seems like it's very much uh lateral management where you've got the strategy side tugging in one direction and you have the the operation side tugging in another. Do you have any tips on how to to deal with those kind of situations?

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Um I think the first tips is to listen to people, uh really truly listen. Um listen to what they do and what they need or what they think they need. Because at some point, if you've understood everything, you can come back to them with a first step of a solution, with the first step of something that will help them. So for me, the key thing, and this is not about GIS, it is not about IT, is listening to people, truly listening, like let them talk about their work, what they do, what are their challenges, what do they like, what their days like. And it will help you understand uh either their manager or um a specialist in in the in in in a mission or a finance person or HR, anything, truly listen to them. And this is how also you build the trust because when people uh feel they are heard, really heard, they trust you. And this is also one of the most valuable things as a manager that you need to acquire to make things grow, to make things go well.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

I do love that you just need to be heard sometimes. Eloise, you have one minute left. Do you have any final thoughts that you wanted to share with us?

SPEAKER_01 19:21

We are in uh in uh an era where technology is everywhere, and it's really good that this podcast and this discussion led us to connect with the people. So listen to the people, listen to your counterpart, that's really important. I think that's the takeaway.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Eloise, your time is up. Thank you so much for joining me today. Now, if people are interested in what you do or if they want to get in contact, what's the best way to do that?

SPEAKER_01 19:51

I think linkeding is uh the good tool here.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

LinkedIn's the one. Okay, I'll put a link in the description to your direct LinkedIn. Eloise, thank you so much for joining me today, and I really look forward to hearing about your future projects. Bye-bye. Thank you for listening to 15 Minute Maps presented by me, Hugo Powell. This was a Powell Media production. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast on whichever platform you're using to listen to it. And I do encourage you to share it with any of your friends and colleagues who may find this topic interesting. And on that note, if you or anyone that you know may have an interesting idea for their dream map, please don't hesitate to get in contact with me on LinkedIn.